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Thread: The physics behind CTE aiming

  1. #1
    Billiard Instructor Dave Manasseri's Avatar
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    The physics behind CTE aiming

    In case anyone is interested in what the science community has to say about CTE, the following is a clip taken from Dr. Daves site. If someone wants to know a little bit about the background of Hal Houle and CTE, here is a very good article by Roger Long:

    http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger4.php

    Another graph and full version of Daves article can be read here:

    Billiards and Pool Aiming FAQs

    Here are a couple of graphs of the CTE pivot distance (from the tip) according to the desired cut angle. The colors lost something in translation, so some description is in order. The middle curve (black) of the five in each plot is the correct pivot distance for the desired cut angle on the bottom axis. The two adjacent curves, one above and one below, each show the pivot distance that would result in a 2 degree error in OB direction (4 deg. total range). The outermost curves show the same for 5 degree errors (10 deg. total range).

    The curves were generated according to the description of the method described at Spiderweb's (Dave's) blog. Based on the somewhat complex shape of the curves, it's hard to see how anyone could know the right pivot distance, or get away with using only one or two. Moreover, in the range of about 20 to 40 degree cuts, the pivot location moves beyond the end of the cue, approaching infinity as you near 30 degrees.


    [IMG][/IMG]

    (Also keep in mind that systems are based on one contact point on an object ball, while in fact the ideal contact point changes with any spin applied.)

    More from Dr. Dave:

    With all pivot-based aiming methods, the choice for "effective pivot length" must vary with the distance between the CB and OB, as illustrated by the following diagram from my November '08 BD article. Note - the purpose for this diagram is simply to illustrate a general principle pertinent to all align-and-pivot systems like CTE and 90/90. The diagram is not meant to show a specific aiming example for any particular system or shot. The pre-pivot alignment shown is actually a 90/90 edge-to-edge (ETE) alignment, but again, this choice is not important to the point being made. With a fixed alignment (whatever alignment that might be) and a fixed "effective pivot length," the distance between the CB and OB has a huge effect on the resulting cut angle of the shot:


    [IMG][/IMG]
    Dave Manasseri

    BCA Instructor
    (917)647-7122
    42-29 77th Street
    Elmhurst NY, 11373

  2. #2
    Chris Zambrotta
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    have you considered the wind factor and drift . How about gravity and the angle of the sun . . these are some forces you might want to think about . . Also the female low cut shirt distraction factor .. Not sure if that physics , Mental state should also considered and human error.
    No matter how hard we try not to stare, a little look cant be avoided . (:-O. you have Elk Master tips? . Mines done. . u were right about that Porsche. . Cal me .

  3. #3
    Member John Barton's Avatar
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    This image that you copied from Dr. Dave's website does not apply to CTE and has been debunked graphically and on the table.

    Your title is misleading because the information you provide is not the physics behind CTE aiming.

    Here are two tests proposed by "science" guys who said it's impossible to use CTE to make all these shots. Yet here it is, using CTE for all the shots. CTE being the method whereby the shooter sights and aligns themselves to the shot by using the CTE line on all shots.

    JSP's Test



    Dr. Dave's Test:



    The article by Roger Long is not about CTE physics. It is about the nature of people getting pissy about one side or the other.

    It's worth noting at this point that CTE is taught by BCA Master Instructors, Tom Simpson and Randy Goetlicher and Scott Lee. In addition Stan Shuffet who has trained many professionals including his son, multiple time national champion Landon Shuffet, teaches CTE.

    Stan's website is The official web site of Stan Shuffett and Landon Shuffett
    Randy's website is Cue-Tech pool and billiards instruction where they have FOUR BCA master instructors on staff who teach CTE.
    Tom Simpson's website is Billiards & Pool Instruction by BCA Master Instructor Tom Simpson
    Scott Lee's website is Scott Lee's Traveling College of Billiard Knowledge - Pool School and Trick Shot Artist

    Combined these instructors have more than a century of pool knowledge between them. They don't endorse something that is not both solid and repeatable.

    In contrast the people who are doing the "science" if you can call it that are beginners who cannot play pool very well. Dave Alicatore's page is a hodgepodge of whatever anyone made up and has no coherence and should not be taken in any way as relevant to learning CTE. Most of his other work is fantastic. On the CTE subject though he has failed enormously. Which is sad because with his help CTE could have been cleared up years ago.

    I understand that you desperately want to discredit CTE and that you intensely dislike me personally now. My suggestion to you would be to have an earnest conference with your fellow BCA instructors, especially the MASTER level ones and get on the same page. Because you are doing a disservice to them and to billiard education in general by being a contrarian who won't keep himself abreast of the state of the art in billiard education. Don't let your emotions get in the way of providing real value to your students.

  4. #4
    Member John Barton's Avatar
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    This is the correction to Dr. Dave's erroneous diagram:



    And a link to the larger one for more detail:

    http://www.jbcases.com/diagram-correction-big.jpg

    What does this mean? That a different BODY POSITION is required for each shot but that the SAME sighting takes place for each shot. The Shooter USES the CTE line to get their body into position for each of the shots diagrammed. The shooter is NOT shooting a half-ball hit. He is only getting into the position relative to the balls using the CTE line. Then with proper bridge placement and a small pivot to center ball he is dead in line with where the ghost ball would be.

  5. #5
    Billiard Instructor Dave Manasseri's Avatar
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    Not sure what you think that video proves John. Nobody is saying you cant make balls using CTE. Btw, Daves diagram does not show a half ball hit for all shots, but if you think he is wrong you are entitled to your opinion. Dr. Dave does go on to list the actual math behind the reasoning, if anyone cares to look at it.

    I teach CTE myself, as well as many other systems. Nothing wrong with teaching it, especially to beginners. It gets you in the ballpark. But when I show people CTE (or 90/90, any pivot based method) I do so with caution because it has yet to be mathematically justified. You can make balls using cte, but all systems have limitations(some moreso than others). If CTE really got you in dead ghost ball position, somebody would have proven it on paper long ago. My own experiments have been consistent with Dr. Daves findings, which is that the required pivot changes with the shot angle and distance.

    I think some real light about pivot systems has recently been shed by Stan Shuffet. I have not seen the Pro-1 video but I have read some interesting things about it. Take a look at the chart which refers to the system. It is full of various options regarding both the pivot and the cue ball/object ball relationship. Here is the chart, about a quarter of the way down the page:

    Billiards and Pool Aiming FAQs


    What I am getting at here is nothing personal, just pointing out that shooting pool is much more intricate than pivot and click. I am willing to believe that Pro-1 is legitimate. But because of the required adjustments, I cannot see how other pivot systems( which dont call for any adjustments) can also be correct for every shot angle. Even if CTE was 100% perfect ghostball every time, contact points change as soon as spin is introduced. That means adjustments will be needed, none of which any system accounts for(ghostball included). Systems can help as a reference, most are worth learning. Beyond the intermediate level though, experience and feel will be required(system or no system).
    Dave Manasseri

    BCA Instructor
    (917)647-7122
    42-29 77th Street
    Elmhurst NY, 11373

  6. #6
    Billiard Instructor
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    I don't understand why some people get so worked up when you say CTE works because of sub conscious aiming. I don't get how that's a bad thing.

    But whatever, it's like arguing religion or politics.

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